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The Big Payback
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Posted By:
countryboy at 07/10/2008 12:03:31 PM
Comment:
we appologise for your own people selling your ancestors selling you into slavery.we appologise for the jewish slave merchants selling you to plantation owners where you were fed,clothed,taken care of and taught to work.we appologise for generations of you living on welfare(our tax monet).we apologise for your people smoking crack and robbing and killing each other in countless acts of stupidity.we appologise for you burning down your own neighborhoods. we appologise for you not being able to learn to read,write and speak the national language.we appologise for you not being able to figure out how to use a belt to hold up your pants and for you not knowing how to tie your shoes,wear a hat,for not knowing how to spell simple words as boys(boyz).fat(phat)etc. we appologise for you making our cities unsafe to go into.we appologise to you for clogging up our court system and prisons.we appologise for the millions of *** children you have produced .its no wonder youre always asking each other "whos your daddy",its one of the great mysteries of your race. we sincerely appologise for your music (jungle war songs and chants) being played at sickenly high volume through blown speakers and your forcing everyone in the vicinity to roll up their windows and cringe.we appologise for your being lazy and dirty .for leaving used diapers ()paid for with our tax money) lying around in parking lots.we appologise for your behaviour in public,yelling screaming cursing and general lack of manors.we appologise for your role models being drug dealers,gangster rap starts that kill each other and football players like michael vick that kill the poor losers by stomping them to death,electrocuting them,and hanging them all truely great role models.when one of you is successful you call him an uncle tom.when one of you actually tries to educate themselves theyre told education be a white thing we apppologise for the way you do your jobs the way you do your jobs those of you that have jobs.when you cant even get an order right for a hamburger and fries at a burger doodle and we have to ask for a straw a napkin and salt and still dont get it right.we appologise for you just being here at all.please feel free to leave.that will earn you our undying gratitude-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/10/2008 2:49:32 PM
Comment:
Countryboy,
By the way -- this is the correct spelling of apologize. -
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/10/2008 2:41:42 PM
Comment:
Countryboy,
We will continue to pray for you and your ilk to one day be healed from the narrow, simpleminded mentality that causes you to see the world through the prism of racist stereotypes. Gods speed to you Countryboy.
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Posted By:
PhilKleiner at 07/08/2008 3:35:27 AM
Comment:
I've never understood the american black communities obsession with integration. Why would black folks think integrating into white society would be some kind of cure for their problems? Why would you want to live next to someone who raped, killed, murdered and enslaved your people? In most parts of the world you want to get as far away from that as possible. It is like Jews demanding to live in Nazi neighborhoods after the holocaust. The Jews got out of Poland and Germany to form Israel or at least went to the United States. It seems like it would be more logical to demand a black nation in the states or somewhere else. I'm not saying that integration is a bad thing but I have no idea why american black people would want it. Israel gets reparations from Germany wouldn't a black state have more power, and be better for the black community? Doesn't a land without white police officers, businesses or politicians seem like a better place to prosper. If I get one thing out of reading this magazine it seems like racism is oppressive, everywhere and effects every second of black life in America so maybe a second state is the answer.-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/08/2008 10:49:47 PM
Comment:
PhilKleiner,
Unfortunately much of the struggle waged by blacks in America has been framed in the context of integration/civil rights. It was in-fact a human rights struggle. Malcolm X was one of the few black leaders who recognized that fact and planned to bring a human rights claim before the United Nations on behalf of blacks in North America. But as we know Malcolm was assassinated.
It is ridiculous to suggest that anyone believed or believes that physical proximity to whites would solve the problem of white supremacy in the United States. As a matter of human dignity and basic human rights it was NECESSARY to crush the dehumanizing system of racial apartheid practiced in America. A byproduct of that has helped to discredit white supremacy. The more genuine contact and communication that occurs across racial lines and every other line for that matter we are the better for it.
Also, I would submit that the Jews would have preferred to beat back the Nazi's and stay in Germany and Poland rather than being forced out. If they could have stopped the Nazi's I suspect they would have and they would have stayed in those countries where they had already built their lives. By the same token America belongs as much to African-American descendants of slaves as it does to European whites or any other group. You could even argue that African-Americans have a greater claim on the country than anyone else when you consider it was the slave labor of their ancestors that built the country and provided the foundation of wealth on which it now stands. You seem to regard it as negative or some kind of misguided ignorance the fact that African-Americans have and continue to fight for their rights as well as their rightful slice of the American pie. I regard that as a virtue. Likewise I expect African-Americans to keep on keeping on cuz that???s how we do.
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Posted By:
hockeyrules at 07/06/2008 6:48:19 PM
Comment:
OK! Enough allready about reparations and the like. You can go back to ANY point in history and see mankind's inhumanity to man. Slavery is nothing new and no culture is removed from its implications or participation. It is not present days' societies that are responsible for the transgressions of its past. Let it go! -
Posted By:
thebaker at 07/04/2008 4:17:56 AM
Comment:
My family were all poor white people. My great grandmother was full blood Cherokee. My children were the first in the family to get college degrees. Wealth was certainly not passed on from generation to generation. The problems of the world boil down to human beings raping, murdering in an effort to conquer other groups. Its not just white people doing harm to others. Its the history of the human race. Africa, or the mother country as you call it is no paradise. The Hutu's wiped out the tutsi's in an ethnic cleansing. Rape, female genital circumcision, civil wars, military coups-remember Mr. Amin of Uganda. I could go on and on. Its the history of the world. I don't know of any white person today that had anything to do with slavery. I don't know any black person living today that suffered under slavery. And don't try to diminish the plight that native americans suffered. Be grateful you live in the best country in the world. -
Posted By:
Arclight at 07/03/2008 5:18:09 PM
Comment:
Great idea - punish people alive today who may or may not be descendants of slave owners for the sins of people that have been in the ground for at least a century. Take proceeds and give to people that have a similarly distant connection to the past. And when that fails to cure folks' ills, go back again and ask for more.
Fortunately as a realist I know that this will never happen. -
Posted By:
seamus at 07/03/2008 4:14:14 PM
Comment:
Where do we begin, and where do we end in paying reparation to the descendants world wide of those who have been victims of oppression, exploitation, slavery and injustice? Should the descendants of Rome pay for the iniquities of the Empire, the Mongolians pay for the rape of Eastern Europe, the British pay for 600 years of colonialism and empire in Ireland, the North African Arabs for perpetrating the slave trade, the Mayan remnants pay to the progeny of slaughtered and sacrificed indigenous people of Meso-America, the Danes for the crimes of the Vikings across the North Sea? Where does it stop?
The problem is we have to live in the now. We have to make a world for the future generations, and we have to do it in such a way that all people feel that they have an equal stake. Reparations may be richly deserved, but realistically it will never happen, and the tragedy is that energy and hope are being placed in an empty vessel that is doomed to stay empty. Work for justice in the here and now. Work for change in a self-destructive culture. Work for opportunity that is not given but inevitable in the face of unquestionable preparation. Don't bet on a pipe-dream. -
Posted By:
miss lauren at 07/03/2008 2:18:33 PM
Comment:
Educating those who oppose reparations or preferential treatment in employment, home loans, government funding to the truth about America's actions and policies. So many of my friends just dont know and so they see their boss hiring/promoting a person of color over them (probably in compliance with some secret racial quota corporate rule) and just blame it on affirmative action, not the company being stupid or the company's promotion/hire for better qualifications. I have a friend who just doesnt know how badly minorities were treated and she hates anything that could cause her to not be hired because of the paleness of her skin, the irony! -
Posted By:
BLB at 07/03/2008 11:03:37 AM
Comment:
Good article. I'd like to see a diverse panel of economists research the economical side of slavery. We need to critically analyze the wealth generated and accumulated by this country and others (France, England) to first determine what was lost to our forefathers. Then we can determine how that debt should be paid back. Our country needs to heal and needs to move forward but we cannot if we continue to ignore our history.
American children are not taught the truth about the way this country was founded hence, the ignorance on both sides begins at children. Let's tell the truth. It's about justice, people! -
Posted By:
BLB at 07/03/2008 10:57:18 AM
Comment:
I would like to see an organized and diverse effort to explore this topic. Let's organize a multi-ethnic panel of economists to explore the proceeds generated from slave labor and the wealth accumulated and passed on to future generations.
I am in favor or reparations but, I not necessarily in monetary form. A tax credit toward my grandchildren's education would be just fine for me. There are many elements to this discussion. -
Posted By:
njuzu at 07/03/2008 3:45:51 AM
Comment:
Time to get to work people. You want to pass wealth onto your children? Earn it; save it; write a will. We cannot ignore our history, but we must not let the past destroy our future.
Instead of begging for reparations that you know will never come, you should be demanding that the government funds and runs the educational system properly. That's how people get 40 acres and a mule today. Let's stop pretending that all the problems in our community, or anyone else's for that matter, will suddenly disappear with a check. -
Posted By:
jdylan at 07/03/2008 2:37:52 AM
Comment:
Sitting around, wasting time, waiting for a check. Take no responsibility for the plight of your lives today and beg for pity. After all, you are part of the most pitiful group that history has ever seen. Teach your children that hard work is for fools, they're owed for being the descendants of slaves. Black entitlement. Don't liberate yourself you have black liberation theology and besides others will liberate you. Better said a mythology which doesn't know the definition of self liberation. Don't ever call yourself an American or man or woman; always put black in front of those words. Believe in racism down to your very soul. Envelope it so your spirit can always walk with a chip on it's shoulder. Don't look at the Asians or Latinos because they will shame you by asking for nothing and earning what they have. They work to hard and have to much self pride. Pride is a deadly sin you know, so they are attacking you when things are bad for you. Always be a victim so know one will ever expect anything from you. That way you'll never have to give because you'll have nothing to give. And those who stray away from the group make sure they don't go to far. Never let them forget the continuous pain you live with so you can take from them.
Will reparations stop this? Yes? Then right the check and hope Muhammad Ali was wrong when he said, "you can take all the black folk out of the ghetto and put them in Beverly Hills and in 24 hours Beverly Hills will be a ghetto." There is a lot more than money that black Americans need. You're free and still don't know what to do with it. And finally don't let a white man talk to you the way I just did.-
Posted By:
Patra at 07/09/2008 1:12:55 PM
Comment:
jdylan, you make many assumptions about African Americans...but then that is what assholes do...I thank god everyday that I don't have to work around you people anymore...because I truly cannot stomach white people.-
Posted By:
jdylan at 07/13/2008 1:33:55 AM
Comment:
Thank you. You honor me when you differentiate between us. Truth is cold and hard and does not digest in everyones stomach. Especially those who still pray to a god. How shameful is that to behold and believe the foolishness of good and evil. Should the truth present itself to you you would call it a devil. The truth says those who can be enslaved will be enslaved. And if they can't free themselves they have no right to be free and truly will never know how to be. Always a slave morality will follow them. Especially those enslaved by god and the fetters it places man in. Of course you do not have the ability to be free from all things; virtues, ideals, principles, morality. You lack the ability to see yourself superior to your race because you believe the lie of equality, but continuously you argue against it unknowingly. Truly you lack the ability to count to three.
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Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 11:50:24 AM
Comment:
After considering the irony of you waxing superior over an entire people who you accuse of having "a chip on it's shoulder," I'll just note for the black folk reading that your reply is an excellant articulation of the attitude of a preponderance of us white folk speaking freely.
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Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 1:39:45 AM
Comment:
Lets get rid of the prison industrial complex, where one in ten young black men now languish, before we flatter ourselves that we can begin to repair black folk in this country. Then lets devote those resources to reperation. -
Posted By:
jrock at 07/02/2008 5:38:53 PM
Comment:
There is to much to comment on here.Let me summarize it by saying the black race is fucking pathetic.Go to africa or a black nieghborhood near you.-
Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 12:04:31 PM
Comment:
I can't let this pass. This country (north, south, east, west and in-between) and our capitalist system were built on the unrenumerated labor of enslaved millions of black Americans. Of all of the transplanted peoples that make up our nation, they have been here permenantly the longest (considering the early colonial propensity of 1st generation white migrants to return to the "mother" country, and the impossibility of the same for Africans) and until they became more valuable as prison fodder than as cheap abusable labor (we've replaced them with so called "illeagel" people", no people added value (through their discounted labor) to the American economy.
For a white person (and I am one) to stand atop the advantages provided them by the un or under paid lavor of dozens of generations of African ancestors and direct these most American of us (because no one is invested in this land more than them) to leave, is beyond hubris in it's ignorance. -
Posted By:
Ms. Right at 07/02/2008 8:30:03 PM
Comment:
Go back to Europe and stop terrorizing everybody.
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Posted By:
jrock at 07/02/2008 5:33:31 PM
Comment:
People in this country dont have to apolgize for ***.Brazil inslaved much more blacks then whites did.It was there own people in africa who inslaved them first than sold them to europeans.Black people are pathetic.Just look at there track record.Better yet go to a black nieghborhood near you.-
Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 12:08:15 PM
Comment:
You read like the Tories in a Dickens novel.
~O~
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Posted By:
bigbadbob at 07/02/2008 3:52:40 PM
Comment:
Fine, once a case has been made for restitution, a case must be made as to who owes the restitution. Those who emigrated to the U.S. after slavery was abolished? Those economically oppressed who had no hand nor say in the holding of slaves. How about only those who are descended from slave owners? Or at the very least decended from those who resided in so-called "slave states". The issue of restitution is ridiculous.... yes it is a sad commentary on our past... no, there is no way to equitably restitute.-
Posted By:
Ms. Right at 07/02/2008 8:35:39 PM
Comment:
This country was built on the backs of African people and the genocide of Native Americans. White or european americans owe people of African Descent and Native Americans. In fact, just leave the country; you could not pay what you owe. Take your head out of the sand and realize you invented terroism and now it has come back to haunt you. If the Muslims don't get you the Chinese or Koreans will. You need to humble yourselves and realize you are not superior to anyone. Then maybe you will not have to worry about somebody trying to kill you. -
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/02/2008 7:12:29 PM
Comment:
If we pay restitution to the displaced families of Iraq or spend money to rebuild what we have destroyed in Iraq that money won't come ONLY from taxpayers who supported the war or ONLY from families with soldiers fighting in Iraq or ONLY from Americans who voted for George Bush. It will come from the American people period. When the government acts we all take responsibility whether we agree with the action or not. That's one reason civic participation is so important -- we need a government that acts in our interest but we aren't simply free to abdicate our responsibility as citizens when they don't whether were alive when the action was taken or not.
If reparations every happened it would be a government program/government money just like any other action of the government.-
Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 12:11:06 PM
Comment:
Superemecy is was and always will be a trap and a curse imposed by past generations.
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Posted By:
Omugabe at 07/02/2008 2:37:26 PM
Comment:
Apologizes are ALWAYS for the satisfaction of wrongdoers, and for those who inherited 'benefits' from their ancestors wrongdoing!
Reparation is the meaningful and practical recompense to those who are wronged, and to those descendants who were made to 'inherit' disparities, even to this day. -
Posted By:
hikawan at 07/02/2008 2:13:33 AM
Comment:
Two words: Japanese internment. My best friend's mother vividly remembers being relocated from Oregon to Wyoming (which, if I'm remembering a book I read awhile ago correctly, was the biggest "relocation" ever done by the US government...yes, bigger than any Native-American relocation). Want to know what just takes the cake? She said that the land she stayed on was Native American land, literally rented by the US government (although I recall reading that one of the tribes later sued for more money). As a Japanese-American, I find it appaling that no Native American has come forward to apologize for aiding and abetting this discrimination. The "white man" gave a few of us a little bit of money; where's our cut of casino profits? But then, can't my Chinese classmate demand money from me because some Japanese men used her grandmother as a "comfort woman"? What about the Russian professor I had in economics? Is he "the white man"? Is my roommate, whose parents are not of the same race, Mexican or White? Remember that when a government pays out, it's the currently alive taxpayers that foot the bill, so I feel that these concerns are highly important.
Or, you can just do what my parents culture told them to do- Say "Shikataganai" (Nothing can be done) and get back to work. Seriously. Every complaint about who did what to who takes air away from someone who wants to get on with life and actually make the world a bit better. Instead of complaining about the domicle, hyper-sexed Asian female stereotype I see, I got another job so I could support myself in college (no, my parents haven't even given me one dollar. Not that dollars are worth much, these days). My roommate is the hardest worker (and very good at school) I know, regardless of however many times people assume she can't speak English. We'll be sucessful in the future whether or not the "white man" pays up - What about you/your kids? -
Posted By:
feline74 at 07/02/2008 2:11:44 AM
Comment:
Another form of reparation that might be good--putting some serious money into improving education for poor people of all races. Not all improvements can be bought with money, but buying those that can would help.-
Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 12:20:58 PM
Comment:
That's they key to it; bring in the tide rather than try to drag boats out of the mud.
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Posted By:
soloalpha03 at 07/02/2008 1:31:09 AM
Comment:
All white people are not to blame for the ills in this country. And frankly, I've seen many poor and middle class whites suffering because of the greed, insensitivity and carelessness of the white, black, and brown elite. Nevertheless, Negroes worked without pay. Negroes were taxed without representation. And Negroes continue to suffer economically because of the after effects of slavery. This doesn't mean that we are the only ones that have suffered. These are just facts. If I work for a day, I expect to be paid for a days work. If you work for a day, I want you to be paid a fair wage as well. If I suffer an injustice at the hands of another, regardless of race, I demand justice. I'll take separate BUT EQUAL (Plessy v. Fergusson without the Jim Crow) for all I care, let's just settle this past-due bill.
To receive reparations we have to demand them. Most of the Black people I know laugh at the mere notion of reparations. This ignorance must be eradicated. Education, organization, planning, and execution...these are the steps toward African American reparations. And we can't wait around for thieves to admit their criminality and realize that reparations may never come if we don't force the issue. F*** an apology, give me my acreage and my mule! Anybody who is serious about addressing this issue has allies at dangerousNEGRO.com -
Posted By:
soloalpha03 at 07/02/2008 1:29:49 AM
Comment:
All white people are not to blame for the ills in this country. And frankly, I've seen many poor and middle class whites suffering because of the greed, insensitivity and carelessness of the white, black, and brown elite. Nevertheless, Negroes worked without pay. Negroes were taxed without representation. And Negroes continue to suffer economically because of the after effects of slavery. This doesn't mean that we are the only ones that have suffered. These are just facts. If I work for a day, I expect to be paid for a days work. If I suffer an injustice at the hands of another, regardless of race, I demand justice. I'll take separate BUT EQUAL (Plessy v. Fergusson without the Jim Crow) for all I care, let's just settle this past-due bill.
To receive reparations we have to demand them. Most of the Black people I know laugh at the mere notion of reparations. This ignorance must be eradicated. Education, organization, planning, and execution...these are the steps toward African American reparations. And we can't wait around for thieves to admit their criminality and realize that reparations may never come if we don't force the issue. F*** an apology, give me my acreage and my mule! Anybody who is serious about addressing this issue has allies at dangerousNEGRO.com -
Posted By:
Mekejele4 at 07/01/2008 8:30:02 PM
Comment:
An apology is necessary in the healing of this nation. Many white people have grown indifferent at the plight of anyone but themselves failing to realize that reparations are actually a sign of "Paying" for the WORK of our ancestors as well as systemized racism that still exists. Remember Sparkle Rai who was killed by her father in law for simply being black. Think of all the young single mothers doomed to a fate of poverty brought on by generations of dysfunction and hopelessness coupled with a damaged educational system. The young men who turn to the streets for acceptance. These are just some of the problems that the apology and an acknowlegement of wrong doing from our Government can begin to heal the wounds of a whole race.-
Posted By:
rjgarrick at 07/03/2008 12:22:54 PM
Comment:
Universal in-depth historic education before some uninformed apology. -
Posted By:
Ms. Right at 07/02/2008 8:49:23 PM
Comment:
Apology. First of all, they don't mean it. Secondly, it is too too little, too too late. Third, It won't help. Fourth, I don't accept it. Fifth, I want my money!!!!!
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Posted By:
b.s. at 07/01/2008 7:16:31 PM
Comment:
FYI- what about all the property destruction to immigrant white families during the 1960s? The majority of businesses damaged in the Rochester 1964 riot were owned by first generation Americans living in a racially mixed part of the city.
Now, I've had Quannell X tell me that "you were just visiting- that was our home" in reference to the ghettos of America, but if reparations discussions are beginning to gain more ground, there will be a whole host of problems asserting that one racial group deserved such and others do not.
Can we open up a discussion on indentured servitude and enslavement of Native American, Asian and European peoples in the Americas? Would black America decide they don't want to share their pie? I apologize for the accusation that such would occur, but that seems to be the response I was given.
ps- would payment of 40 acres and a mule bring up all the broken tribal treaties?-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/02/2008 2:14:20 PM
Comment:
b.s.,
Whether or not we ever see reparations for the descendants of enslaved Africans in America, I have to challenge your contention that, "there will be a whole host of problems asserting that one racial group deserved such [reparations] and others do not." There may be a whole host of problems surrounding reparations, but determining that the descendants of slaves are the one racial group who deserves reparations is not one of them in my view.
It is an UNDISPUTED fact of American history that Africans were brought to the Americas in chains for the sole and distinct purpose of serving as slaves to white slave owners. What other racial group in America can claim that offense? It is an UNDISPUTED fact of American history that the U.S. Constitution defined enslaved Africans living in bondage in America as 3/5 of a person. What other racial group in the history of America was designated as 3/5 of a person? It is an UNDISPUTED fact of American history that during slavery it was illegal for enslaved Africans to learn to read, to get married and of course to attempt to escape to freedom. What other racial group in America can claim that history? With the end of slavery there came an elaborate system of laws and racial codes that applied only to blacks and were designed specifically to keep blacks oppressed. Black people in the U.S. lived under a systematic rein of terror where they could be lynched, jailed, bombed, burnt out, murdered, denied any basic human right at the whim of any white person with no legal recourse to fight the injustice. No group in America can claim the same degree or level of infraction suffered by blacks.
Black people in America won't have a problem making a case for recompense. Whether other groups think they are likewise entitled is up to them to make that case. As for African-American descendants of slaves, no other group in the U.S. can claim a similar level of sustained dehumanization and oppression as that practiced by the American government against blacks. The mistreatment visited upon the black population spans hundreds of years in the history of America. What other group in America can claim that level of "government" oppression?-
Posted By:
b.s. at 07/02/2008 3:57:54 PM
Comment:
Just to add fuel to my already stupidly growing fire (or just to dig my own hole a little further)...
Is it possible to say that this reparation payment would be given to only descendants of slaves? Caribbean and African immigrants in the 20th century will be exempted? What about the discrimination they have suffered in America? What about intermarried ancestry?
Would descendants of English slaveholders pay reparations? Or would the non slave-owning descendants of European immigrants since 1860 also pay reparations?
In asking questions I have assuredly come to realize that there is not one 'white' population and one 'black' population out there, and if we can stop comparing the statistics on these lines it should be possible to blur the definitions even more. FYI- 7% of Americans define their ethnicity as "American"- half Scotch-Irish Appalachians and half African-Americans.-
Posted By:
Ms. Right at 07/02/2008 8:54:33 PM
Comment:
I do agree that Native AMerican deserve reparations, but the only thing that could be close to reparation for them is for white folks to leave and take nothing with them. In terms of African immigrants. Africa owes African Americans for their part in selling us. SOOOO No - African immigrants would get nothing. Un less you think of Aparthied and Americas role in sedning money to Isreal who sent owned the Diamond mines where Africans were underpaid and died because of poor conditions. Carribeans need to sue Europe not America.
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Posted By:
b.s. at 07/02/2008 3:57:26 PM
Comment:
30,000 to 50,000 Native Americans were enslaved in the Carolinas and shipped to the Caribbean between 1670 and 1715. (http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/history/hs_es_indians_slavery.html)
50% to 75% of European immigration was indentured servitude. Irish, Scottish, English and German peoples were sold to a captain of a vessel then sold to the highest bidder upon arrival in the Americas (Canada, US and Caribbean). Scotch-Irish peoples were also exiled into indentured servitude, and trumped up charges in the feudal system meant that the poor could be rounded up and deported at will. In the process many families were broken up.
Even today there are instances of Asian, South American and Russian laborers or women being sold into untenable and lifelong servitude- but these are not largely the rule and should be "ignored" in this case.
I cannot dispute that Africans were the majority of slaves in America, but other peoples were brought to the Americas to serve whites (but you should be saying the English, white is an invention of the 20th century). I must bring up the caveat that in the 1600s many African laborers were indentured servants, not slaves. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr3.html)
The 3/5 rule was a horrible part of American policy and no other group was defined as 3/5 of a person. The compromise proposed by James Madison stopped the Northers from being able to say that slaves were people (1/1) and the Southerners from saying that they were not people (0/1). That distinction was in reference to taxation and proportional representation- for voting purposes slaves were 0% percent of a person, they could not vote. Now the indentured servants come back into the argument here, because as non-property owners they could not vote either. Also, no woman could vote regardless of race.
Africans were not allowed to read during portions of the 1800s. The ensuing literacy tests to vote effected both African and European people. Slaves were allowed to be married. The tragedy is that 1/3 of marriages were dissolved when families were broken up though human trade.
But no one was allowed to escape. That is not particular to African-American slavery.
As far as the last part of that paragraph goes (which should be another UNDISPUTED) the period of discrimination after slavery is a particular sticking point to me- because many people were discriminated against in the history of America. Systematic, murderous, terror-driven power struggles reinforce class warfare, not only racial discrimination. No group can claim the same degree of destructive and willful discrimination EXCEPT native americans. Once again, no offense, but y'all will have to change tactics and parse the facts if there is any hope for reparations for solely descendants of African-American slavery.-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/03/2008 3:40:06 PM
Comment:
b.s.,
American history books rarely acknowledge the barbarism and brutality of this period in our history. Slavery is typically described as a period of servitude by blacks to whites and Jim Crow reduced to separate drinking fountains and Rosa Parks' incident on the bus.
Slaves were considered less than livestock and treated worse. They were worked to exhaustion, raped repeatedly and beaten until their skin peeled off. Everyday of a slave's life was an assault on their dignity, their humanity and their soul. The simple act of calling another man master was degrading and demeaning in and of itself.
Slave girls rarely reached their teens without being sexually abused by the slave master. In the 1800's the founder of modern gynecology, James Marion Sims performed countless experiments on un-anesthetized African slave women and infants.
During Jim Crow railroads ran special excursions to attend a burning or a lynching. Lynch mobs customarily tortured their victims by cutting off ears, toes, fingers, genitals and strips of flesh to distribute as souvenirs. In 1900 the mayor of Paris, TX even gave the school children a special holiday to travel with their families to attend the burning of a black man. In 1918, Mary Turner, a pregnant black woman was hanged, covered in oil and gasoline and burned to death. As she dangled from the rope a man stepped forward with a pocketknife, ripped open her abdomen, the prematurely born child tumbled out and began to cry. Another man stepped forward and stomped the life out of the child with the heel of his shoe. In the 1920's entire black communities in Washington, Omaha, Kansas City, Knoxville, Longview, TX, Rosewood and Greenwood, OK were burned to the ground.
- 1619 to 1863 period of slave trade in North America
- 10-15 million Africans estimated to have died in the middle passage
- 1846-1928 period of "convict leasing" or more aptly slavery by another name
- 1896-1954 period of Jim Crow in America
- 1866-1955 estimated over 10,000 AA men, women and children lynched
- 1932-1972 Tuskegee syphilis experiments
- 1955 Emmett Till killed by a Mississippi mob allegedly for saying, ???Hey baby,??? to a white woman
- 1963 four little girls killed during Sunday school after KKK bombs their Alabama church
- 1963 Medgar Evers assassinated
- 1988 Mulugeta Seraw, Ethiopian immigrant bludgeoned to death by Skinheads in OR as their girlfriends chanted kill him
- 1992 Rodney King videotaped beating in Los Angeles, CA
- 1997 Abner Louima Brooklyn, NY cops beat him then rammed handle of a plunger up his rectum
- 1998 James Byrd, Jr. attacked, beaten, tied and dragged from back of truck by 3 white men in Jasper, TX
- 1999 Amadou Diallo shot 41 times by police in New York City after reaching for his wallet
- 2002 Donovan Jackson developmentally disabled and partially deaf youth beaten by LAPD
- 2006 Jenna Six; Sean Bell
Suggested reading: Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome by Joy Degruy Leary. -
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/02/2008 6:55:40 PM
Comment:
b.s.,
The question on the table as posed by this article is reparations for the legacy of American slavery. The fact that people all over the world have done heinous things to one another does not change, does not minimize and most importantly does not address the question on the table.
You seem to be arguing that because bad things have happened to other people besides enslaved African-Americans and their descendants why should we acknowledge what happened to African-Americans or consider offering them reparations? One problem with that argument is it treats all offenses as equivalent and all offenses are not equivalent. If Jack and Jill are riding bikes and Jill hits a bump and topples off her bike, but Jack gets slammed by a mack truck going through a red light both parties are injured but the injuries are not equivalent. Likewise the fact that Jill was injured (irrespective of the degree) has no bearing on Jack's injuries or what's required for Jack to recover. Beyond that your constant reference to what happened to other groups in America would be like me going into court seeking damages against company 'A' for the wrongful death of my son and the defense argues that company 'A' killed Suzy Q and Sally Sue's son too so why should we pay you? That's no defense to my claim. Moreover, if company 'A' did in-fact kill Suzy Q and Sally Sue's son too, it's up to Suzy Q and Sally Sue to pursue a claim against company 'A.' Whether they do or they don't has no bearing on my claim.
Your desire to engage the question but failure to squarely address the issue is interesting.-
Posted By:
b.s. at 07/03/2008 1:43:01 AM
Comment:
You are right, I do apologize that I digress. It is not my aim to prove why reparations should not exist.
It feels like an exceptional exception to make. Israeli reparations after World War II and American reparations for Japanese internment are the two examples I know of and they were both executed by political pressure and powerful allies.
Your Jack and Jill analogy is easy to understand, but doesn't benefit your cause. If this is an international discussion then Armenians, Rwandans and animist Sudanese should be aiming for reparations. If this is simply an American discussion than the aforementioned destruction of hundreds of native tribes would be in the ballpark of the suffering of African-Americans. This is no Mack Truck vs pothole; this is slavery, rape, murder, terror, intimidation and genocide vs slavery, rape, murder, terror and intimidation. Both should be compensated, but I cannot see these all as anything but relative.
The money trail will be difficult to follow in any process of payment of reparations, but- as you rightly say- it is not my point to dissuade you.
Unfortunately, the discussion of who is liable for reparations in this case will be as muddy as who is owed them. Every major government involved in the slave trade has changed hands since the egregious deed. The only nation without such upheaval would be the US, and getting past a discussion about how the citizens pay taxes and own the government will make it difficult to hold the entity liable.
Equally untenable is the payment of reparations and requiring proof of ancestry seems hardly a logistical solution.
I apologize that my feelings were aroused reading this article and that I did not go out and try to sue the English and American governments for what they did to the Irish, but I hadn't thought of it before. I was just angry and expressed it in my life. Then again I'm not a lawyer, and I have to go to work tomorrow so I'll have to start my research some other time on who I need to sue specifically. Then I guess I'll start saving for law school.
Is this discussion just a white elephant?-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/03/2008 3:26:58 PM
Comment:
b.s.,
The issue I have with your comments is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing on the question of reparations. I take issue with your efforts to equate the experience of other groups with the history of chattle slavery in America. I think I can state as a fact that the Irish experience, the Native American experience and that of any other group is not equivalent to the history of slavery in the United States. I find it troubling that you cannot see the difference. That was the point of my Jack and Jill analogy. Both Jack and Jill got hurt but the magnitude of their injuries were quite different and thus warranted a different response. Whether you agree with reparations or you don't is not my point. My issue is your constant reference to the plight of other groups as if all injuries are the same. LIkewise, it's not a matter of arguing over which party is more aggrieved it's a matter of recognizing the difference. There's a reason some crimes are felonies and some are misdemeanors. There's a reason some infractions garner 6 months in the county jail and others command life without parole.
From the discussions throughout this thread I think the first step in any quest for AA reparations is educating the American public regarding the real history of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and it's aftermath. If people knew the truth of that history I suspect there'd be a lot less arguing over the equivalency of the AA experience and that of the Irish, Native Americans or any other group.-
Posted By:
b.s. at 07/03/2008 5:38:18 PM
Comment:
I think I can state as a fact that the Irish experience, the Native American experience and that of any other group is equivalent to the history of slavery in the United States. I find it troubling that you cannot see the similarities. We are both talking about felonies, and it is insulting to degrade other peoples' troubles as mere misdemeanors.
In the 1840s the British reduced the Irish population by half, now can you imagine if that happened in West Africa? Native American tribes were driven to the brink of extinction, can you imagine that happening to African-Americans?
I do agree that the first step is education, and your listing of the horrors of African slavery is a tough history to digest for anyone, of any ethnicity. I do acknowledge that it should be heard- and much like Holocaust Museums should be honored and displayed so as to never repeat such atrocities.
Unfortunately our subjectivities are getting in the way here, and I cannot degrade my own ancestors suffering to support reparations. It may be that this is only because it feels like I have a link to that traumatic past, and that I do know it's detailed, gory history; your position may be similarly hinged on your own subjectivity- and we are at an impasse.
But anyway, I thought we were beyond this one-upsmanship... if reparations are a goal of the African-American community then the real battle will be fought in courts across the nation, and for anyone wishing to advance their cause they must fight for it- and find allies.
Is it realistic to assume that reparations are untenable both as an abstract demand and as a realistic monetary value?-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/03/2008 7:15:58 PM
Comment:
b.s.,
You don't get it. I am not degrading or diminishing what happened to the Irish at the hands of the British or what happened to Native Americans at the hands of white men or what happened to the Jews at the hands of the Germans.
Again, the question on the table is recompense for AMERICAN chattle slavery. The question on the table is AMERICA'S accountability for this specific aspect of American history. What happened to various other people all around the world is not germaine to the question of whether, why or if at all AMERICA owes anything in the way of reparations to the African-American descendants of slaves.
The Irish experience in AMERICA is not all similar in my view to the history of slavery suffered by blacks nor is the Native American experience with whites similar to the African American legacy of slavery. Likewise I don't know of any other group whose experience was similar to that of the Jews in Germany, the Native Americans in America and so on. I don't see the purpose of comparing atrocities. They are all different and distinct in there own right. In my view they are also irrelevant to the question at hand, which is what accountability (if any) must AMERICA bear for the legacy of slavery?
I just see how the plight of other groups bears upon that question.-
Posted By:
b.s. at 07/04/2008 12:50:43 AM
Comment:
Ok, Robin, I agree. Comparing this situation to others is moot. We agree as well on the position that America, the government founded in 1776, is responsible for perpetrating and profiting from slavery of West African peoples and subsequent racial discrimination, murder, rape and torture.
But the implementation of effective reparations is an effort that seems like a terribly unrealistic goal.
Organizing the effort to bring about reparations would be a massive expenditure with an uncertain future. The delivering of monetary reparations to a group that includes descendants of slaves but excludes those who are not or cannot prove to be so would be a vast government structure. Other groups may launch similar ventures- whatever their relative merit.
Then again, the idea is also too dear to give up. It is the calling card of a deep hurt that can always strike a chord. Inasmuch the discussion will never go away.
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Posted By:
Mekejele4 at 07/01/2008 8:41:31 PM
Comment:
How about focusing on the topic. No one is saying that we should ignore what other races have suffered at the hands of whites. God knows if you were not a white male in this country, you were subject to the whims of alll kind of ignorance many sanctioned by the Gov't as well as the Church (oops did I say that?). Black people must never allow our voices to be silenced by those who wish to minimize the effects of the American experience. As long as we must check the box for "black" "white" "hispanic non black, etc...there will always be a "Race card". Deal with it.-
Posted By:
b.s. at 07/02/2008 2:21:55 PM
Comment:
Yup, those boxes on forms are bad news. Check 'other' and write where you are from.
Pull the race card! There's nothing wrong with that- I can't tell sometimes when I am being racially insensitive. Unless there is dialog between people we cannot minimize the distance between social communities.
I do take offense at the idea that I intend to "minimize the effects of the American experience". I mean no disrespect to the suffering of others' and their ancestors by bringing up my own family past, but I do feel their history and I do not want to be categorized based on American discrimination that I have no respect for.
I write Irish in the Other category.
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Posted By:
Craig at 07/01/2008 4:04:38 PM
Comment:
As a white, middle-aged American, who happens to be a registered Democrat and who will vote for Obama and send his campaign $50, I would purposefully and vehemently campaign against any candidate that even suggested direct reparations based on the ills relating to slavery and Jim Crow policies.
With that said, I would agree to all of the suggestions proffered by ch555x, with the exception that NATO, which would include a sizable U.S. contingent, should continue to have a substantial presence in Afghanistan.-
Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/01/2008 5:31:04 PM
Comment:
Craig,
I'm so glad you shared your thoughts on this subject. Help us understand why you feel such strong opposition to reparations surrounding slavery and Jim Crow.-
Posted By:
Craig at 07/01/2008 6:29:20 PM
Comment:
Thank you for the invitation Robino8. My visceral reaaons are as follows: 1. Reparations are not morally required due to Maxine Waters' participation in protest, the purpose of which was to support the "L.A. Four", who included Damien "Football" Willams, who had been arrested for, among other reasons, throwing a chunk of concrete at Reginald Denney's head during the "insurrection" that occured following the acquital of Stacy Koon, et al. 2. Reparations are not morally required due to the perceived tumultous, jubilant response of the African-American community in response to O.J. Simpson's acquital.
These reasons are not supposed to be rational; they are admittedly visceral.
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Posted By:
Robin08 at 07/01/2008 2:50:43 PM
Comment:
The big payback? I don't think we should view these apologies as a forerunner to reparations. I just don't foresee white people getting up nothing (other than an apology) to atone or pay us for slavery.
I think Tony Brown (of TB's Journal) may have said it best. Speaking on the subject of reparations TB said, "I don't know what they owe us, but I know they ain't gon' pay us."
I don't think we will see reparations in our lifetime if ever. -
Posted By:
garrick at 07/01/2008 11:51:01 AM
Comment:
warrenlongmire: Thanks for the responses!
1. Fair enough, although I feel compelled to add that my original intent was not to preclude reparations for slavery so much as to raise questions about what other groups (and Native Americans are only one example) might reasonably be included in any large-scale redistributive economic effort to atone for our nation's various sins. Still, this might indeed be an example of missing the trees for the forest.
2. Simple, perhaps. Easy? I'm not so sure. Should we use a one-drop-style standard such that anyone who can claim even a single slave ancestor is entitled to equal reparations? If so, this would undoubtedly include a number of white folks --or at least people who are functionally white in our society-- as well as exclude a number of African Americans who do not have slave ancestors or for any number of reasons are unable to document their ancestry, yet who absolutely have experienced the kind of systematic exclusion from access to economic resources which makes it very difficult to pass those resources from generation to generation --which is a major piece of Darity/Mullen's argument--...no black soldiers had to provide extensive documentation to be jilted out of the GI Bill; their skin tone was enough. Should we tie a specific dollar amount to each slave ancestor such that the more ancestors one can document the more money one receives? This might help to minimize some of the problems noted above, but I don't know that it solves them...that said, the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I'm honestly not sure. -
Posted By:
divaliscious11 at 07/01/2008 11:14:08 AM
Comment:
Keep the mule...but I wouldn't turn down some student loan forgiveness.... but only if you've actually finished the degree... -
Posted By:
warrenlongmire at 07/01/2008 10:25:45 AM
Comment:
@ garrick:
1) This discussion has nothing to do with Native Americans. I am always puzzled how it is assumed that the oppression of other groups precudes answering for the sins of slavery. You are correct, both need to be accounted for. And in many ways (the reservation system, certain tax excemptions) Native American oppression has already been addressed (all be it ineptly) in ways African Americans have only dreamed off.
2) Easy. Restrict reperations to those of American Slavery ancestry. While it is absolutely true that blackness is an extremely imprecise term, American Slave ancestry is an objective fact. This is, after all, not about having black skin. It is about a group of human beings being kidnapped, forces across the ocean and made to believe they are chattel for 300+ years. It is a cultural experience we are talking about, not a skin tone.-
Posted By:
tcbees at 07/01/2008 4:23:10 PM
Comment:
The reservation system (which is the basis for tax exemptions, as reservations constitute sovereign nations, untaxable by another country, such as the US) was not in any way a reparation or payment. It was a way to confine and eventually exterminate American Indians. A result of the assimilation and termination policies of the US government. Please get your facts straight.
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Posted By:
ch555x at 07/01/2008 8:58:52 AM
Comment:
Here's what I'd like to see for so-called reparations:
1.) upgrades to this country's infrastructure (roads, utilities, etc.)-long overdue, large task, and plenty of jobs.
2.) renovations to inner-city and outdated neighborhoods-this benefits low-income and poor families
3.) incentives to stregnthen the educational system-this helps everyone not born with silver spoons!
4.) major overhaul of the justice system-this puts ACTUAL criminals behind bars while reopening questionable cases that will free innocent prisoners. This frees up space and money!
5.) end wasteful spending!-wars in Iraq/Afghanistan, war on drugs, pork-barrel spending=free up funds for NEEDED things. -
Posted By:
garrick at 06/30/2008 10:33:10 PM
Comment:
Sincere apologies: Mentally replace Darity with Darity/Mullen in the comment above. -
Posted By:
garrick at 06/30/2008 9:39:47 PM
Comment:
So a couple of questions spring to mind:
1. Given that a) all things considered it is good for the government to keep its promises and b) better late than never, why would black reparations take precedence over reparations for Native Americans? Promises were made in both cases, but do gaming rights and limited national autonomy for certain (but not all) tribes correct the balance of slaughter? Would Native Americans be included in any system of providing reparations? I don't know that Darity is looking to construct a hierarchy of oppression, but neither am I sure of how he plans to get around it.
2. Along similar lines, how would one decide who is "black enough" to receive these reparations? Would one drop be enough? Would Barack Obama get the equivalent of 20 acres...and speaking of which, how has Obama's family historically been denied the opportunity to transfer wealth when his father was African, not African American? (I'm not saying his family hasn't been denied that opportunity in some way, just that I don't know how it has, if it has.) Darity is right to point out that the wrongs he describes are hardly in the distant past, but it's hard to see how reparations can be considered a viable corrective absent some set of coherent criteria for determining who receives them.
Garrick
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