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  Posted By:
  bigbill at 08/05/2008 8:50:14 AM
  Comment:
  Why on earth do you twist BTW's words.
  
  He never told black folks to "cast down your buckets" and do manual labor.
  
  He told American employers (largely white) to stop complaining about the lack of workers in America, going overseas for poverty stricken peasants, and bringing them to America.
  
  He told American employers to "cast down their buckets" right here in America and hire black folks who are loyal, hard working and American. He explained htat black folks were more deserving and America owed a debt to them as Americans that it did not owe to foreign immigrants.
  
  Booker T Washington said everything aht Obama ought to be saying to bring this county together but is not. And why? Because Obama, like McCain, is so bourgie he doesn't care what happens to uneducated black folks or working class Americans in general.
  
  Obama and McCain want to legalize twenty million illegals, give them citizenship and let them import another 7 apiece of their family and more illegals like they did 1986 at the last (and supposedly the "last") massive amnesty amnesty.
  
  Caroaber, you ask why blacks are behind. Maybe t comes from the bourgie black not fighting illeal immigration because they are too good for those factory jobs and would rather break white Republican power by importing poor would-be Democrats by the tens of millions.
  
  Maybe black bourgies want more poor people because it gives their kids better deals on affirmative action. After all, the more non-competitive poor black folks at the bottom, the more power black college-educated Talented Tenth politicians have, right? The more good jobs for their children, right? So what if poor black folks wages and employment are dropping. The poorer they are the more they will vote for high yalla graduates of Howard and Morehouse.
  
  Thankfully, Booker T never forgot the folks he came from and spent his life trying to raise them out of the dirt and put their feet firmly on the bottom step of the ladder. It is sad that the Talented Tenth are so happy to put their foot on the neck of those on the bottom step in order to climb ever higher.
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  Posted By:
  caroaber at 08/04/2008 12:59:32 PM
  Comment:
  We are over one century beyond the DuBois-Washington debates. We should have the education, the capital, the home and land ownership and the business and economic infrastructure of a long-established major American ethnic group. Yet we don't, and in many respects we still lag behind. Why have we been left behind? Why are we so slow to reap the benefits of this democracy?
  
  I always sided with DuBois. We needed to educate ourselves and become marketable and professional. Educated people can demand their rights and air their grievances. They can and should protect their families. (That Booker T.'s great-grandchild was struggling with a baby at 17 speaks to her upbringing and the support or lack of it she had from her family. The same can be said for Malcolm X's daughter, whose son wound up causing his own grandmother's death.)
  
  While Mr. Washington stressed the important goal of achieving economic self-sufficiency, I contend that without a proper education, not simply a vocational one, Black Americans are ill-prepared for controlling their wealth. This sad outcome is now played out by our many pro-athletes and recording artists who waste their money and don't handle their finances well.
  
  Booker T. was not a sellout, but I think he only got half the equation right. Yes, we need capital, but we must have the know-how, the foundation to know how to make our capital work.
  
  That requires a proper education, and we are still trying to convince our youngsters to complete high school.
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  Posted By:
  Reader at 01/31/2008 2:58:42 PM
  Comment:
  I've never regarded Washington as a sellout. He was an uninspiring accommodationist. Sellouts usually are guilty of some hypocrisy; I think Washington truly believed what he advocated.
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  Posted By:
  blackspeak at 01/31/2008 7:22:36 AM
  Comment:
  Excellent article...
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  Posted By:
  buffalosoldier at 01/30/2008 9:57:17 PM
  Comment:
  Booker T. Washington and DuBois represent widely separate poles of the black experience in America. Both men made valid points and did things to improve the lives of black americans. Instead of choosing one over the other, I think it important to recognize that black america has never been monolithic in its approach to black improvement. It is healthy to debate the successes and failures of both mean in order to lay a course for the future.
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  Posted By:
  tobaccoschild at 01/30/2008 4:54:39 PM
  Comment:
  Trying to crown new winners in a century-long debate that is as simple as it is complicated seems counterproductive to McWhorter's point. While I agree that we should grant Washington another look, I don't think engaging in the same false dichotomies will take us there. Both men were committed to Black progress. They disagreed, it's that simple. However, both contributed greatly to the development of the Black community. Indeed, we should welcome such debates and diversity of opinion in this new century. Perhaps, thsi would give us something more constructive to do (i.e. putting our minds and skills to work in the service of community development/renewal/etc). I think we should keep in mind that both of these men evolved and changed and for that they should both be applauded.
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  Posted By:
  The Red Trucks at 01/29/2008 8:46:36 PM
  Comment:
  I think that Booker T. Washington is one of the most misunderstood heroes in African American History! A simple examination of the workings of both the Tuskegee Machine and the National Negro Business League and it becomes very clear that Washington was probably the most extraordinary, while stealthily conciliatory, the greatest economic empowerment strategist we ever produced. While Dubois is probably the greatest intellectual we produced he didn't start one school, college or business. However, it was after Dubois renounced citizenship and moved to Ghana that he admitted that Washington was right!!!! It was in the newly independent Ghana wit Nkrumah that Dubois advised the country on both Washington and Garvey's programs!!!(and it was working until the coup) During my Fulbright Fellship I had the rare privilege to study this in Ghana. Washington's program is needed right now!!!
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  Posted By:
  The Red Trucks at 01/29/2008 8:36:01 PM
  Comment:
  I think that Booker T. Washington is one of the most misunderstood heroes in African American History!!! Most African Americans have never studied him thoroughly as most of our heroes are usually chosen and promoted for us. A simple examination of both the Tuskegee Machine as well as the National Negro Business League tells us that Washington was, while stealthily conciliatory, the most effective economic empowerment strategists we ever produced! Dubois never started one business or school until he gave up citizenship and went to Ghana. At that time, Dubois put both Washington and Garvey's method into practice advising Nkrumah!!!!! (and it was working until the coup)
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  Posted By:
  lindacrich at 01/29/2008 7:57:34 PM
  Comment:
  I am so glad to see this post. I have been an advocate of Booker T Washington ever since my mother had me read Up From Slavery when I was (probably) still in elementary school...some years ago.
  My grandfather had a business in New York. An aunt was a home economics teacher. My father was a plumber trained at the old Hampton Institute. We had numerous family friends and relatives who attended Hampton and who were bricklayers, welders, home economists as well as teachers and other vocational "artists." Where would we have been without them??? At the same time that there were the "trades persons" though, teachers were being trained at Tuskegee, Hampton and other places.
  Recently, I reread Souls of Black Folk where DuBois describes his trip back to Tennessee where he visited the school where he worked after graduating from Fisk. In his words, the building was a shack.
  In contrast, look at the legacy of Booker T. Washington--the beautiful Tuskegee campus as well as thousands of graduates and their descendants!
  Further, in Souls of Black Folk, DuBois rather puts down our folk. In contrast,
  everything in Up From Slavery and Washington's other writings are positive and uplifting. Booker T. Washington was not a sell-out. He was a man of his times and a realistic one at that.
  Even today, we have DuBois-type issues where vocational education programs have been removed from many predominately Black secondary schools. The powers that be seem to think that all young people will be doctors, lawyers and chiefs. Not so! We still need the carpenters, plumbers...and farmers and veterinarians and on and on.
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  Posted By:
  smaple at 01/29/2008 3:01:35 PM
  Comment:
  I believe that the ideas of Du Bois and Washington is too simplistic and not black and white to put in a format of who verses who, and there is an appeal of romanticizing the idea of self-help without understanding the possibility of unexpected variables that come into the play where you may to have to adapt to different strategy. I think it be more academically worthy to examine both theories understand the strengths and weaknesses, and ask ourselves what we can learn and possibly create different and fresh ideas without making the same mistakes as Du Bois and Washington.
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  Posted By:
  smaple at 01/29/2008 3:01:14 PM
  Comment:
  Another factor into this equation is the emergence of Marcus Garvey who captured the attention of many African-Americans who were disenfranchised, disillusioned, and among the poorest in which either Du Bois or Washington met their needs. Washington might have been able to meet the groups need, but an ecological disaster occurs in 1913 and 1914 causing a migration with many African-American moving up to the north as crops were destroyed and they needed to work that factors in northern states provided during that time. Du Bois and his talented tenth theory would not work as human nature tends to rear its ugly head as very few individuals are willing to put their goals ahead of the larger group goals particularly if they are not common. I think both Du Bois and Washington had good intentions, but the question becomes they really understand the needs of black folk during that time or only took into consideration their personal experiences and thought they could expand it to black community at large.
  
  
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  Posted By:
  smaple at 01/29/2008 3:00:14 PM
  Comment:
  I think both theories had pros and cons. I believe self-help is important, but it only takes you so far as no one really does it all alone. Yet, there are times when a collective effort is necessary for the survival of everyone involved. There was a fundamental difference between Du Bois and Washington in the type of educational focus for the Black American during that time. Du Bois was a proponent of liberal arts education, and Washington was a proponent of an industrial education.
  
  I personally believe in a well-rounded education and what is wrong with a person who is a carpenter who also has a great understanding of the philosophy of the foundering fathers or enjoyed poetry through such diverse education. In addition, these two diametrically oppose views of Du Bois and Washington caused a rift between them. This rift does affect blacks during that time where you have the working class v. the elitist class. In addition, we tend to look at these two historical figures through contemporary eyes and not necessarily understanding the context of their time.
  
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  Posted By:
  smaple at 01/29/2008 2:50:53 PM
  Comment:
  Here is part two of my comment:
  
  Another factor into this equation is the emergence of Marcus Garvey who captured the attention of many African-Americans who were disenfranchised, disillusioned, and among the poorest in which either Du Bois or Washington met their needs. Washington might have been able to meet the groups need, but an ecological disaster occurs in 1913 and 1914 causing a migration with many African-American moving up to the north as crops were destroyed and they needed to work that factors in northern states provided during that time. Du Bois and his talented tenth theory would not work as human nature tends to rear its ugly head as very few individuals are willing to put their goals ahead of the larger group goals particularly if they are not common. I think both Du Bois and Washington had good intentions, but the question becomes they really understand the needs of black folk during that time or only took into consideration their personal experiences and thought they could expand it to black community at large.
  
  I believe that the ideas of Du Bois and Washington is too simplistic and not black and white to put in a format of who verses who, and there is an appeal of romanticizing the idea of self-help without understanding the possibility of unexpected variables that come into the play where you may to have to adapt to different strategy. I think it be more academically worthy to examine both theories understand the strengths and weaknesses, and ask ourselves what we can learn and possibly create different and fresh ideas without making the same mistakes as Du Bois and Washington.
  
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  Posted By:
  smaple at 01/29/2008 2:50:21 PM
  Comment:
  I do not understand why there was a Du Bois v. Washington in the first place. I think both theories had pros and cons. I believe self-help is important, but it only takes you so far as no one really does it all alone. Yet, there are times when a collective effort is necessary for the survival of everyone involved. There was a fundamental difference between Du Bois and Washington in the type of educational focus for the Black American during that time. Du Bois was a proponent of liberal arts education, and Washington was a proponent of an industrial education.
  
  I personally believe in a well-rounded education and what is wrong with a person who is a carpenter who also has a great understanding of the philosophy of the foundering fathers or enjoyed poetry through such diverse education. In addition, these two diametrically oppose views of Du Bois and Washington caused a rift between them. This rift does affect blacks during that time where you have the working class v. the elitist class. In addition, we tend to look at these two historical figures through contemporary eyes and not necessarily understanding the context of their time.
  
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  Posted By:
  smaple at 01/29/2008 2:47:39 PM
  Comment:
  I do not understand why there was a Du Bois v. Washington in the first place. I think both theories had pros and cons. I believe self-help is important, but it only takes you so far as no one really does it all alone. Yet, there are times when a collective effort is necessary for the survival of everyone involved. There was a fundamental difference between Du Bois and Washington in the type of educational focus for the Black American during that time. Du Bois was a proponent of liberal arts education, and Washington was a proponent of an industrial education.
  
  I personally believe in a well-rounded education and what is wrong with a person who is a carpenter who also has a great understanding of the philosophy of the foundering fathers or enjoyed poetry through such diverse education. In addition, these two diametrically oppose views of Du Bois and Washington caused a rift between them. This rift does affect blacks during that time where you have the working class v. the elitist class. In addition, we tend to look at these two historical figures through contemporary eyes and not necessarily understanding the context of their time.
  
  Another factor into this equation is the emergence of Marcus Garvey who captured the attention of many African-Americans who were disenfranchised, disillusioned, and among the poorest in which either Du Bois or Washington met their needs. Washington might have been able to meet the groups need, but an ecological disaster occurs in 1913 and 1914 causing a migration with many African-American moving up to the north as crops were destroyed and they needed to work that factors in northern states provided during that time. Du Bois and his talented tenth theory would not work as human nature tends to rear its ugly head as very few individuals are willing to put their goals ahead of the larger group goals particularly if they are not common. I think both Du Bois and Washington had good intentions, but the question becomes they really understand the needs of black folk during that time or only took into consideration their personal experiences and thought they could expand it to black community at large.
  
  I believe that the ideas of Du Bois and Washington is too simplistic and not black and white to put in a format of who verses who, and there is an appeal of romanticizing the idea of self-help without understanding the possibility of unexpected variables that come into the play where you may to have to adapt to different strategy. I think it be more academically worthy to examine both theories understand the strengths and weaknesses, and ask ourselves what we can learn and possibly create different and fresh ideas without making the same mistakes as Du Bois and Washington.
  
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  Posted By:
  sglindo at 01/29/2008 10:54:14 AM
  Comment:
  Booker T has always been viewed perhaps unfairly as a sell out, yet I think he understood the times in which he lived. Southern blacks were essentially agriculturalists and with this new "freedom"-if you will-after the civil war he saw, as suggested in the article, opportunity-opportunity, no matter how far fetched, to be masters of the industry. After all he was successful in making Tuskegee's bricks the best in the state to the extent that White businesses bought his bricks which made the school money.
  
  I think casting down your bucket meant that where ever you were in your lot in life start there and move forward. So in essence your starting point could have been a businessman, professor, etc if you were already there. I think his point was that you couldn't be uneducated and hold a position that required a certain amount of education. That still holds true today.
  
  I suspect this will be a rather lively discussion...