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Please just get on with your lives and quit using racism as a crutch, yes, it exists, but until you choose to rise above it will keep you down.
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Im with you!!!!!!

I feel you but Spelmans applicant pool is just as or more competitive than any other school in the country for black women. State schools are overjoyed to retain talent within the state or attract talent from out of state especially when that talent is that of a minority, or a minority female. So naturually they are going to throw more dollars in your direction. I was accepted to UVa's Administration and Supervision Program in the Curry School and they offered me everything under the sun. Now am I highly decorated on paper? Yes. However, I doubt they would have jumped as quickly if i was a white guy. It is what it is. Am I pro HBCU's? Please believe it. I am also happy that we are getting educated at the postsecondary level regardless of what or where the institution may be. I just get annoyed when people express the notion that whitey is our key to salvation.

If thats insulting to you thats simply because of your own hangups. And no that statement is not based off the premise that blacks are at Harvard because of affirmative action. What that statement says is that while Harvard has maybe a few hundred black applicants qualified for merit based aid Morehouse has 3 times that amount with the same credentials if not better. And "the Harvard of HBCU's" man please. Morehouse College has a rich history and culture of its own so the notion that we brand ourselves as the aforementioned is retarded for lack of better words.
Now when talking dollars and cents Ivy League schools don't do a "better job" than HBCU's in looking out for black students. They have more financial resources to help ALL STUDENTS WHO QUALIFY FOR NEED BASED AID. So if you want to talk about insulting statements then check the fallacious conjectures that you expressed in your first email. Basically what you said is that white folks are taking care of us and black folks aren't. And by the way, I'm a graduate of Morehouse College and I will be attending Harvard in the fall. So don't play me like i'm trying to pass my institution off as something that it's not. I went to the real Morehouse and I will be attending the real Harvard.

Yes K dog this topic has been covered before and on this platform and every time it starts a firestorm

You stereotype all Black Americans and you need to refrain from it. Many black Americans work hard by completing college and are doing meaningful things in society. I have earned my advanced degree and I worked hard for it! I did not blame the white man or anyone else like some people do. People will blame others for their unhappiness in life. Read about Adolf Hitler and how he blamed the Jews for his shortcomings in life. You really need to read about the stories of blacks in this country. If it was not for black Americans fighting the abuses of slavery, Jim Crow and other forms of second class citizenship, you would not have experienced Ivy League schools in this country. You claim to be so intelligent, but you need to seriously research blacks in America. Many African immigrants LOVE to stereotype black Americans and it is sad! People of various races will work hard in life and some will not. You need to stop with your biases against black Americans. Many Ivy League schools will cater to immigrants for enrollment quotas, etc. You are no better than other racist imbeciles. Get over yourself and do some research!

In comparison to whites black Americans are overrepresented among the poor
But still, only 1 out 5 Black Americans lives in 'the gettho' and is poor.
Things have changed since the 60's! Although it's till not perfect

Figures show that the problem of education among black Americans is not a lower class problem. Also among middle and upper class black youth you can see a lower succes rate than among whites or Asians (or black Africans and others)

Why?

Black Americans are just as capable to succeed

One of the main reasons I think is:

black American culture incorporates a psychology of Anti-Intelectualism and Victimology

1. 'being smart or studious is acting white, is being an oreo' - anti-intelectualism
2. 'because of racism everything is excused' - victimology

growing up in such a mind set doesn't stimulate youth to think big when thinking about education, it drags them down!

We have to stop the herressy that says that a black kid with a book is acting white!

For one, kind of get over yourself, there are too many of us (Black Americans) that share your same perceived work ethic, for the same perceived reasons, we have grown up in poverty and made tremendous successes of ourselves, reaching heights that for some reason you can’t see. Unfortunately, as so many other foreigners entering this country, you have immediately adopted the same bigoted viewpoint about Black Americans that the majority has. This chip you say that we have has been built from 400 plus years of history of existing in a country that thrives off of the hypocrisy of claiming to be the land of the free, while treating its citizens like dirt. Also part of it is because here we are free to have chips on our shoulders. Yet in spite of these challenges we have been able to contribute, excel, create and labor long and hard for generations to continually improve on its living conditions, I'm not going to say to you, as you have said to us, "Why can’t you improve your station in life in your own land? Because that would be hurtful and divisive (hint). But intelligent as you sound, you should know that history plays a dynamic part in why and how groups deal with each other. If I came to another country in which I did not share the same history as its native folk, I personally would not have much to say about why they act the way they do. Here Black Americans and White Americans are intrinsically intertwined because of sharing the same history, call it if you may that 400 year plus long incident and being a new neighbor, you just wouldn't understand.

Academic scholarships are not the same as need based financial aid. Harvard does not even offer academic scholarships because everyone would receive it, in that case.

In response to your point, "The applicant pool is extremely top heavy so a student with a 4.2 gpa and a 1200 on the SAT isn't as valued at Morehouse as he would be at Harvard because that is the standard of entering class...The issue is that the applicants at the top of the black talent pool at Harvard aren't quite as decorated as those who apply to Morehouse or any other of the top HBCU's." That response is not only deeply insulting but it's also extremely preposterous. By making that comment you are somehow imagining that every person of color at Harvard is there by some affirmative action that lets those less qualified but more pigmented in. EVERYONE who applies to Harvard has a 4.0 and, what I knew to be, a 1600 (I guess it's now out of 2400). That is why the acceptance rate is at a lowly 9%. Please don't continue to delude yourself into thinking that because you went to the Harvard of HBCU's that you are somehow more superior.

I don't think kpaduwa was wrong in alleging that the ivies do a better job of making sure that students graduate with less debt. The ivies are better endowed. Like any school, the amount of aid you're offered is often dependent upon your household income. My cousin starts at Spelman this fall, and she wasn't offered much in the way of fin-aid. Granted, her father is a college professor, and the university where he teaches is covering a good deal of her tuition, but if she didn't have that resource available to her, then she probably would have had to go into some kind of debt to attend a selective college. I applied to Howard and wasn't offered any scholarship money. The price tag for the ivy league school I got into for undergad wouldn't have been dramatically less for me to attend either because of my mother's tax bracket. When all was said and done, it was cheaper for my mother to pay instate tuition (Virginia), buy me a car, and set up a trust for me when I graduated, then it would have been for me to attend ivy or an HBCU for four years.

I don't know, maybe instead of framing this debate in terms of ethnicity, it would be better to use a different analogy to appease those who seem to think that if the ivies don't admit large numbers of African and Caribbean immigrants or their kids, there won't be any blacks on campus whatsoever. After all, there are just so few native US blacks worthy of admission to ivies, that there's just no other alternative. In a seriousness, someone needs to drag out some statistics because I'm under the impression that the number of blacks at the ivies hasn't increased in spades with this immigrant trend. I'm also of the belief that the number of blacks admitted is still consistent with the overall US black population. It's just that lately, there have been pockets of black admits that are being preferred, in spite of the fact that those particular blacks don't represent the majority of the US black populus. This makes me wonder if 41% of the Asian student population consists of immigrants or children of immigrants. Is this the status quo for all ethnic minorities at the ivies or just blacks? And if it is just blacks, then we most definitely have a problem.

I am one of those African-Blacks who attended Brown and here are some of my thoughts based on my large circle of fellow African-Blacks who have all attended/graduated from America’s top tier schools.

- We aren’t from “wealthy” families in the American sense. Once you account for currency exchange value, the majority of us fall between middle-class and working-class. I got a full academic scholarship for my undergraduate degree. Of the top of my head I can mention another 20 to 25 African-Blacks I personally know who either got full or half scholarships. Keep in mind that the bulk of us are not citizens and do not even qualify for financial aid! So we funded our top-tier educations primarily with scholarships and secondarily with a combination of parental assistance and employment.

- We have a much stronger sense of work ethic…which is not strictly “natural” but drummed into our heads from an early age. We come from countries stricken with poverty and hardships that your average Black American cannot begin to comprehend. And it is so blindingly obvious for us, that the only way to better ourselves and improve our stations in life is by education. That in my humble opinion is the number one reason we excel academically. I don’t know if this message isn’t as clear in the US but to us in Africa it is. An education is your golden ticket and we do not joke around when it comes to that.

- We simply do not have the same chips on our shoulders that Black Americans do (whether justified or not). We see nothing but opportunities for success here in the US and we grab them. We encounter racism; we brush it off and aim for the bigger picture. We aren’t constantly analyzing every comment or action by non-blacks directed at us to determine if there is a smidge of racism in there. We simply don’t have the time or energy to engage in such behavior. We have our eye on the prize and that prize is way too important to be sidetracked by racism (real or imagined) and other perceived slights.

- And on a personal note, as I don’t want to speak for any other African-Blacks on a sensitive matter as this. Like Agotee mentioned in his post time and time again I am disheartened and even frustrated that some Black Americans keep going on and on about the “man” keeping them down. I came from Africa and I did it! why the hell can’t you?!? I remember being amazed at all the opportunities I encountered when I first got to this country; free public libraries with new books and computers even, free after school tutoring programs, abundance of mini-scholarships ($250 to $500) for writing an essay or what not, effective public transportation systems that could get me around town inexpensively, constant electricity and clean running water, stable internet connections, the list goes on and on!!! Ha! Have you any idea how many Africans would kill for such luxuries?!? When we come here and have these handed to us for barely nothing, you have to realise that 2+2 kicks in and we think to ourselves, “Wow! Think how much more luxuries will come my way once I am educated and skilled?!?”

First I would point out how ridiculous we are being by allowing these cultural divides to leave us divided and conquered once again. Second, how are any blacks, "foreign" or "native" so called overrepresented in any majority institution of higher learning. This implies that there is some invisible ceiling that may not be surpassed when considering the number of minorities admitted to the institution. I say we as minorities black, hispanic or whatever are still very underrepresented in institutions of higher learning period. If we can stop being so foolish, and stop getting caught up in these social mousetraps set by white folks maybe we can move forward and accomplish more.
Speaking to Kpaduwa's statements regarding HBCU's
You are sadly mistaken if you believe that Ivy League schools do a "better" job at making sure its students are debt free. I am a graduate of Morehouse College and I will be attending Harvard's School of Education in the fall. In all honesty the talent pool of applicants at a Morehouse College is way more competitive than that of an Ivy League School. Whereas Harvard may have 1000 black applicants, Morehouse College has about 10,000. The applicant pool is extremely top heavy so a student with a 4.2 gpa and a 1200 on the SAT isn't as valued at Morehouse as he would be at Harvard because that is the standard of entering class. I recieved a full academic scholarship to Morehouse College so I can honestly say that the scholarships are being rewarded to the top applicants. The issue is that the applicants at the top of the black talent pool at Harvard aren't quite as decorated as those who apply to Morehouse or any other of the top HBCU's.

+

I'm seeing, what i feel, is way too many comments blaming native Blacks for the discrepancies between them(us) and African/Caribbean Blacks. We are a product of the American school system. Our study habits reflect that. We have been attending school based on an agricultural timeline with summer and spring vacations Christmas breaks etc. Foreign born Blacks have a more rigorous study regime that is reflected in their continued success in American School. African and East Indians are taught under the British system. It doesn’t matter if the school is Harvard or my Alma Mata Indiana University. They will always fair better than American students (notice I didn’t say Black American students) If you want to say that we are lazy, we are just as lazy as our white counterparts. We are bogged down with all the same study traits that other Americans are bogged down, which include a devastating lagging in the fields of Math and Science. No Please don’t make this a Black thing cause it’s not.
On top of all of that, we are bogged down with inferior school sub systems, because of all of the social ills in our communities. Just look at the number of children being killed in Chicago every year.
Are you serious? With all of the inventions and contributions that Native Black people have made with, and without the benefit of a formal education. There’s no telling where we could go if we had the educational system afforded foreign blacks. Even if they were born in this country chances are that they have parents that have those superior study habits. This is true with Asian and nationalities. Studies have shown that when second and third generations of foreigners are raised and taught in this country their study habits are reduced drastically, in their attempt to assimilate socially. So many of you seem so focused against Native blacks. Any issue that comes up you want to find fault in our race.

Excuse, in advance, the choppy nature of this comment. There are so many things to address.

I, first, want to clear up some misconceptions. One is that by going to a Harvard or Yale immigrant blacks are choosing to incur tons of debt. The truth of the matter is that the Ivies do a far better job than any HBCU's of ensuring that their students graduate with a minimal amount of debt. Case in point: a friend of mine was deciding between Morehouse and Harvard. Harvard gave him tons of financial aid in scholarships (need based) while Morehouse gave him tons of loans. I, personally, only graduated with a $1,000 worth of debt.

The second is that most of the immigrant blacks are coming from well-to-do families. The truth of the matter is that a majority of Harvard's campus is made up of young people whose families would be considered middle and lower class.

Now to my main point: I am deeply disheartened by the comments I have read which have tried to oversimplify this issue. It is true that black immigrants overly represent the number of blacks at schools like Harvard and this is a complex issue that requires a creative and complex solution.

We cannot simply explain this issue by saying that black immigrant students work harder. We know that's not true.

Nor can we say that black Americans are living in the past. Not true either.

What is more to the truth is that slavery created a socioeconomic structure that still exists to this day. This structure helps to explain ghettos - communities that are not only poor and black but also socioeconomically isolated from the rest of the world. This structure helps to explain poor, urban schools where a majority of students are of color. And thus, it helps to explain how black Americans receive the subtle message regarding what is expected of them and what is achievable.

This is not to say that slavery should be used as an excuse but I believe it helps to lay the foundation for a solution. This solution includes increasing social services in underserved neighborhoods. It means creating higher standards for urban young people. It means better schools and better neighborhoods, frankly, as well as, better recruitment on the part of the Harvard's of the world.

Speaking as an immigrant black I can say that I was raised Nigerian and so never truly identified with the black American experience. I had my fair share of racist attitudes towards me but I think knowing that I was "the exotic other" helped me to not internalize any messages of inferiority.

In any case, this is a much longer conversation that requires more than simple reasoning.

What they don't talk about is the fact that Ivy League institutions (and other tony institutions) actively seek out Black immigrants, particularly those from privileged backgrounds, because these schools are interested in a particular kind of "black student" -- the exotic other if you will.

The children of Diplomats add cultural cache to the ranks. Perhaps if they would recruit Black Americans with the same zeal, then the numbers would be different?

I agree the study does not list how many native black students apply to the Ivy League vs. foreign black students. My guess is that is not that far apart. Like the article says more native black students need to apply to the Ivy League. To quote the research study:

"Africans are the most educated immigrant group, with many originally coming to the United States to pursue a college or professional degree. Their educational attainment at 14 years even exceeds that of whites and Asians at 12.9 and 13.1 years, respectively."

Most foreign blacks I know of college age are here to get an education, that is why I think a large number to apply to the Ivy League. I do respect your opinion.

One of the study's conclusions is predominantly white admissions officers look more favorably on foreign black students than native black students with similar GPA and admission test scores. From personal experience (I'm considered native black), I dated a Kenyan women in college. She worked as a waitress on the weekend in the South. Often she received disapproving looks when customers saw she was their waitress. Once she began to talk and they knew she was African they would smile and ask: "What country are you from?", "What are you studying?", "Do you like the U.S.?"

If she had been a native black person, they would have continued the disapproving looks, not asked her any questions, and probably given her a small tip or none at all. I imagine the white admission officers likely had negative feelings (constantly ingrained from society) about native black students and positive feelings about foreign black students just like the customers at her restaurant.

"In contrast, if we find few differences between native and immigrant African
American students with respect to either objective or subjective indicators,
then it is likely (though hardly proven) that immigrants are not overrepresented
through some process of favoritism but simply because they display, on average
and for whatever reason, traits and characteristics that admissions officers find
attractive. If there are no differences in readily measurable and observable
characteristics, but differences in subjective characteristics do emerge, we
might conclude that the selection in favor of black immigrants is unconscious,
having to do with the greater comfort experienced by predominantly white
admissions officers with respect to immigrant as opposed to native blacks."

Massey et al.
FEBRUARY 2007

Re read the article and the comments. Blacks make up less than 1/5 of the general US population, and when you look at the racial breakdown of ivy league student demographics, the amount of black students enrolled reflects that fact. The majority of black Americans in this country have four grandparents that descended from the American slave trade, yet the number of black students on ivy league campuses that can claim having four grandparents that were descendents of American slaves is becoming a rarity. This discussion hasn't anything to do with a "minorities are taking over" mentality. This discussion is about how recent black immigrants and their children, which probably make up 20% (if that) of all blacks in the US, could constitute some 41% (perhaps more) of the black student population at America's most prestigious universities.

If you've been to any of these campuses then you know that it is rare to walk pass anyone remotely dark skinned. Ivy league schools have much more whites than anything. We can cater to this "minorities are taking over panic" or we can look at the honest fact:
Minorities are underrepresented throughout our universities, job market, law making, law enforcement. WE ARE UNDERREPRESENTTED EVERYWHERE ACCPET
PRISON, THIS IS CRAP!

If you've been to any of these campuses then you know that it is rare to walk pass anyone remotely dark skinned. Ivy league schools have much more whites than anything. We can cater to this "minorities are taking over panic" or we can look at the honest fact:
Minorities are underrepresented throughout our universities, job market, law making, law enforcement. WE ARE UNDERREPRESENTTED EVERYWHERE ACCPER PRISON, THIS IS CRAP!

"I don't understand why it is so important to make the distinction between black immigrants and African-Americans (or Blacks native to America). I wonder if white and Asian people look at stats to see who is native white or native Asian to America."

I don't know for certain, but I suspect that the vast majority (70% or above) of White students that attend the ivies are not children of recent immigrants or were born abroad themselves. Perhaps the same could be said of the Asian student population as well. If say, 41-50% Harvard's White student population was born abroad or had immigrant parents, don't you think there would be a considerable uproar? Immigrants/children of immigrants don't constitute 41-50% of the US white population as a whole, yet 41-50% of them should gain admission to the most elite US universities, without 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th generation Whites batting an eyelash? Yeah, Ok, whatever. . .So, if we can agree that white immigrants and children of white immigrants wouldn't be allowed over represented in the pool of students admitted to ivies, then why isn't that the rule of thumb for the black student population?

I agree with "jrshipp." I think a lot of the comments are overlooking the fact that at the end of the day, universities pick and choose the students that they want to admit. There are plenty of students (yes, even black students whose parents have been here for generations) with high GPA's, difficult course loads, and top percentile standardized test scores that get rejected from the Ivies every year. So lets just put a stop to this misnomer that the West Indian/African immigrant population's test scores and GPA's are just so astronomical that the ivies can't turn more of them away. Most applicants do not control their admissions destinies; they can only increase the likelihood of being admitted. At the end of the day, someone has to hand them an opportunity to attend an elite university. The fact that the ivies are choosing to extend so many invitations to a sliver of the black population in the US warrants scrutiny.

Partially, we (immigrant Africans) don't tend to have the African-American/Black British thing of not going for it. Unless there is literally a law that says 'you can't do it', we can and will do it. It's not an aggressiveness, it's more of an audacity (yes there is a distinction).

It's also partially an elitist thing - they usually have family financial support - you cannot afford to fail and waste all of that. And at some point, you need to gives that back - failure is not an option. If you are in this category, you needs to keep up with the Joneses. Poverty is not an option and education is wealth. Literally.

And thirdly, it's a determination thing. You know what happens if you do fail. Especially for Africans (and indeed any other immigrants), who have fought tooth and nail to get that better life in America/Europe. Your focus is working to get as much as you can, whilst you can. Relaxing happens later.

Fourthly, it's a population thing - hence most of them are Ghanaians and Nigerians. Those guys are everywhere!

@ the neo-african americans: Love the wall/window explanation.

DawnBar thank you for your post...

"Could it be that the immigrants actually work harder than black people born in America? You can't deny that black America has a sense of entitlement, which has handicapped the youth and taken away their opportunity. Get on with your lives and quit using racism as a crutch, yes, it exists, but until you choose to rise above it will keep you down."

I agree with DawnBar, this is so true. Blacks are still living in the past, still reading the Mis-Education of the Negro or the Education of the Negro, still reading the old Jim Crow books, etc. Get over it! Racism has been here since the beginning of time, it is not going anywhere. Before Africans were slaves, the Romans enslaved their own.

But, most of all stop punishing each other.

I don't understand why it is so important to make the distinction between black immigrants and African-Americans (or Blacks native to America). I wonder if white and Asian people look at stats to see who is native white or native Asian to America.

If it's just to understand why immigrants perform better, then I don't see why this a 'black' issue. If it's just to claim historical black rights then it’s a different story.

Then you should accept the fact that there is no such thing as a 'black community’. Then there would be, apart from the Blacks native to America, an Irish-American, a Jamaican-American and a Nigerian-American community. And last but not least a very proud Kenyan-American community.

But maybe this has something to do with acceptance of other black communities. See a European black perspective on this issue

http://afroeurope.blogspot.com/2009/06/african-american-versus-afro-cari...

This study is less "interesting" than it it is suspicious. I am still waiting to read the story's take-away or the "so what?" Immigrant populations in general may be "overrepresented" in the Ivy League compared to American citizens. However, given that the Ivy League represents global institutions of learning, should this be surprising? Over 95% of the world lives outside the U.S.?

The real issue worth exploring is why are African-Americans "underrepresented" in the Ivy League. The meta message of the study is that African-Americans are being displaced by Africans. For some reason, the authors of the study, and perhaps the Root's article, believe Africans and African-Americans play in a zero sum game in which they are the only participants for a finite pool of slots alotted to Black folks. If this assertion is true, that would be a great story line for the Root to pursue because it would speak more closely to the "root" of the problem.

Black folks, or Africans in the Diaspora, share a deep and rich history and culture. This reality can be a source of enormous strength if leveraged properly. However, it should be obvious that within those overlapping networks there are equally interesting and valued differences. Healthy respect and appreciation for the diversity within the Diaspora is also an enormous strength if leveraged properly.

We are living our own story and refuse to outsource it.

http://www.MyBlackNetworks.com
Because MyBlack is the New Black

"Other important points to consider is that the immigrant for the most part is not aware of racism as is the African American, and that unawareness might be his key to success. This was already mentioned. When we look at Obama, we have to appreciate his background and how far he has come. He had a different persective on life. He though black, was not cumbered by fear. Raised by his white parents he was buffered from certain realities and baggage the average African American child would naturally carry. He is really fearless. Just a small diversion in the formula, makes for a persons altered perspective on life.
What this piece proves to me is the devastation racism has wreaked upon the psyche. Of its long and far reaching effects, and further establishes the real potential of the African American student.
Also to consider that the immigrant may not provide the kind of indulgences the African American parent may provide for their children, constrained by finance or choice. The immigrant child has learned to do with less distractions and therefore develops stronger disciplines to learning.
The downside of the product of these ivy league schools may be the immigrant's dissconnect from the African American counterparts. If I can do it why can they? . He further becomes less sympathetic toward the African American and his real or imagined setbacks, A mindset that has been earlier passed on to him from his pareent and further established by his appareent success.How does this impact the black community?"

This, I think, is one of the better analyses of the overall situation.

Just to add to some of what everyone is saying, when you take fully into account the immigrant mentality, the immigrant is here with the overiding idea this is not his home. therefore his desire is to get what he can as fast as he can. And so he passes it on to his offsprings. The African American has nowhere else to go so he does not posess that urgency. We can say that the African American is saying: Damn, if I can't have it all I want none of it.
Other important points to consider is that the immigrant for the most part is not aware of racism as is the African American, and that unawareness might be his key to success. This was already mentioned. When we look at Obama, we have to appreciate his background and how far he has come. He had a different persective on life. He though black, was not cumbered by fear. Raised by his white parents he was buffered from certain realities and baggage the average African American child would naturally carry. He is really fearless. Just a small diversion in the formula, makes for a persons altered perspective on life.
What this piece proves to me is the devastation racism has wreaked upon the psyche. Of its long and far reaching effects, and further establishes the real potential of the African American student.
Also to consider that the immigrant may not provide the kind of indulgences the African American parent may provide for their children, constrained by finance or choice. The immigrant child has learned to do with less distractions and therefore develops stronger disciplines to learning.
The downside of the product of these ivy league schools may be the immigrant's dissconnect from the African American counterparts. If I can do it why can they? . He further becomes less sympathetic toward the African American and his real or imagined setbacks, A mindset that has been earlier passed on to him from his pareent and further established by his appareent success.How does this impact the black community?
The question should he be politically aware on the onset when this is the very dense mentality that's behind his success. Is the African American then to change his mindset to achieve this single purposed success? Is this kind of success the answer to inequality?
But this is not to admit that there is no racism in our soiciety. It is the ability to be blind to it, so that a student can may complete a class and get their A's and B's from an instructor who, seeing their utter waste of racist methods on that student, abandons his efforts.
We always want to think that the black immigrant is the recepient of some secret grants from our government when we see them succeed in business, etc, but in this case we know it is by sheer ability he has achieved his position. There is much more to say about this topic, so the conversation continues.

I agree with you that the issue should not be sensationalized as African Americans v. black immigrants. Nevertheless, there are some revelations from this paper and from anecdotal evidence worth a critical look.

First of all, yes, black immigrants are over-represented because they make up only about 13% of college age blacks in America, yet are 41% of blacks at Ivy league institutions. One thing many people don't realize is that this does not even count international students from Africa and the Caribbean. When you add them, we're probably talking something around 50 percent! That is not insignificant. There are obviously many reasons for this.

The mostly commonly mentioned, as you did too, is that they come from wealthy and prominent families. Well, somebody define wealthy and prominent families. At the time I came to America for college, my dad was actually unemployed. He had however saved some money, and I came with about $1,000 cash, about a quarter of the family's savings. I had an academic scholarship which covered tuition, but I had to figure a way to live. Don't ask me how I even got through the first year of school when I did not have a work permit even to work on campus. This is the situation of many of the international students from Africa and the Caribbean: scholarship plus pure hustle. Not wealth and prominence.

You do bring up an important point: that other studies by Dr. Massey reveal that there is very little difference in performance black immigrant and African American students once they get in.

And that brings me to my final point: getting in. We tend to look at this issue from only one side of the equation, i.e. what percentage of the ENROLLED black students are immigrant. The other side of the equation will tell us how many of the black students APPLYING are immigrant. And then we will have a full picture of what's going on here.

I would guess you would find black immigrant students over-represented. If my sense is correct, then the issue becomes one of the MOTIVATION to apply. Again, my instinct from my experience working in a youth after-school program is that some parents and, sadly, their kids have internalized the narrative that the "rich white" people won't let them in anyway.

See my post below about whether one sees a wall or window to the American dream.

Regards

I feel this paper is being presented somewhat unfairly with term overrepresented. There are over 140 million people in Nigeria alone, mostly black. There are only 38 million African-Americans in the United States. So, to me it makes sense there are so many top level students when you combine the cream of the West Indies and many parts of Africa together.

The paper does state that many of the foreign students come from wealthy and prominent families. Sorry John Connor, you are wrong. I think the mentality of a good student is the same whether immigrant, white, black, whatever...

I always prepare myself whenever this paper is discussed, because the conversation often degrades into "African-Americans vs Africans in American" Yes, immigrants are hard working but the U.S. is selective in choosing who can enter.

This issue is not complex, and has nothing to do with the class status of the immigrants.

They work harder, study longer, don't make excuses, and don't blame society for their failures.

One day we may give up the bellyaching and do the same.

I would not put it as immigrants being more timid but having had to 'step off the sidewalk' less recently. In addition they tend to mhave less qualms of aiming for the elite schools and positions.
There is common talk of Jamaicans aggresiveness.There is cause. They had bush to escape to during the period of slavery and these escapees brought the mighty British Empire to its knees. the Maroons.
This drove a wedge for the rest of the Caribbean. Check out the man Toussaint in Haiti.

Yet in a generalism the Afro American once more has lost his way. the desire to fight back against oppression is present but most of it is misdirected into and against his own community

http://neoafricanamericans.wordpress.com/

Read this piece that appeared in a South African paper today and the resultant comments: http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-06-19-xenophobia-still-smoulders-in-cap...

And compare it to the comments on this page

There was a mistake in the post. It was supposed to say 41% of the black students.

I have made a documentary, The Neo African Americans, about how rapid, voluntary immigration from Africa and the Caribbean is transforming the "African American" narrative. After 30 screenings, mostly at elite universities, I'm struck by the complexities of answers, depth of emotions and rawness of passions around a question as simple as "Are you African American?" (You can see the Facebook Group for some of these answers)

The differences between African Americans and black immigrants often gets sensationalized, but can be broken down in very simple terms.

For instance, one African student explained that the Black Student Union was political (and therefore exclusive) while the African Student Union was cultural (and therefore inclusive), hence the need to have two separate organizations, even though they do collaborate on some events.

Another student, an African American, observed that he and his African American peers tend to choose political, social and historical majors while his African and Caribbean peers tend to go into business and the sciences.

But in order to see the big picture, picture a wall.

Historically all black people in America have faced a wall to their achievement of the American dream. Over the centuries, many African Americans have bled and died to break windows in that wall; windows large enough for people to jump through. Nevertheless, there are still huge chunks of wall remaining. Many African Americans still feel a responsibility to break down what remains of the wall. Some scholars call that the African American project: TRANSFORMATION.

Enter The Neo-African Americans. Most of them come from places so full of walls that when they enter America and they encounter this thing, they don’t see a wall; they see windows. In fact, they come here looking for windows, so their main objective in America is to figure out how to jump through those windows. In that regard, they are more immigrant than black. Call it the black immigrant project: EXPLOITATION.

Most of the differences between African Americans and Neo-African Americans come from this fundamental difference in frame of reference. It is however important to remember that black immigrants are not immune to the walls. Before the NYC cops shot Ahmadou Diallo or sodomized Abner Louima, I don't think they asked them: "Are you African American?"

Whether one sees a window or wall is also a question of strategy: should black people in America spend energy breaking down the rest of the wall so everyone can just walk through, or jumping through the windows in such masses that what remains of the wall crumbles?

"Immigrant Blacks" constitute 41 percent of "Black" students at Ivy League institutions--not 41 percent of the overall population (the hyper-linked article referenced above makes that clear.) The study, conducted by demographers Doug Massey (Princeton) Camille Charles (Penn), and Margarita Mooney (UNC-Chapel Hill), titled "Black Immigrants and Black Natives Attending Selective Colleges and Universities in the United States" (American Journal of Education, 2007)--is definitely worth reading.

Not taking anything away from our immigrant brothers and sisters, but maybe there's another dynamic at work here. Do black immigrants have some idealized attachment to what the Ivy League represents in mainstream America, that say a middle class native black kid from Atlanta or a working class native black kid from L.A. wouldn't have? How many highly motivated native blacks aren't willing to to take out 50K in loans a year and find it more economical to go to state universities? How many well connected, well heeled highly motivated upper middle class kids find their niche at Spelman or Morehouse or Hampton?

"Look at American History. First the Irish/Scottish immigrants were granted opportunity, then the Jews, then Asians, now Latinos and immigrant African-Americans. All these groups are perceived to be more timid and less radicalized than Black Americans. These numbers aren't as a result of the lack of capable students, it's because of fear and malleability."

Quit belittling the success of others.

No one granted opportunity, we seized it ourselves. It isn't like white America woke up one day and said "Hey, we should let [blank] be successful!"

No, we became successful because we worked for it.

Don't forget that "Mongoloid" is still used to refer to those with Downs-Syndrome... Jews, Asians and others were and still are discriminated against by bigots and fools of all races.

We just didn't get upset over the inequities of the system and instead focused on economic success one generation and then educational in the next. It is kind of hard to claim someone is your inferior when, in terms of demographics, they're more successful, richer, and more educated than you.

Could it be that the immigrants actually work harder than black people born in America? You can't deny that black America has a sense of entitlement, which has handicapped the youth and taken away their opportunity. Get on with your lives and quit using racism as a crutch, yes, it exists, but until you choose to rise above it will keep you down.

"...wondered whether or not the immigrant mentality and work ethic contributed to the larger proportion of immigrant blacks at his school." The answer is yes. One would have thought that having been denied an equal access to education since 1619, that once given access, that African Americans would have wholeheartedly embraced education. Sadly, that's not the case. On many college campuses, sisters outnumber brothers by 2 to 1. If we haven't embraced education and its positives by now, when do we put a spotlight on intellectualism? And by the way, sisters are making sure that they get their education.

Though there are definitely more black immigrants in Ivy League Schools, it is no where near 42 percent of the student body. That is just plain false and it's kind of shocking that you guys would have missed it. What you are actually saying is that at places like Princeton and Harvard near half of the student body is black. That's ridiculous.

Back in 2007, the last time I remember seeing any stats on this black immigrants made up 27 percent of the "black student body" at Ivy League schools. Maybe it's gone up to 42 percent in the last two years. But even that is a stretch.

As far as America preferring one over black Americans, that is kind of old. The fact is, immigrants are often highly motivated people regardless of their color. And the other fact is that a good chunk of non-HIspanic immigrants who come to this country are professionals, whose children are more likely to attend college.

Agree, with kdog. This is probably not too complicated. What is likely is that familes from the West Indies or Africa who are able to immigrate to the United States are likely to have higher-than-average incomes and levels of education. These are advantages parents are able to pass along, to some degree, to their children, which likely accounts for the over-representation of immigrant children at elite universities.

If you attended an Ivy League school (Penn '02) this is not a surprise. It's a surprise when you first get to campus and wonder why all the people like you don't have roots in the South, but rather Jamaica, Trinidad, West Africa, etc.

While I think it's great that these students are getting this opportunity, at the same time it is sad because it's just another indication of the fear that the majority has of "Black Americans." Historically, we are the community that has the most angst and has fought hard for the rights we have been granted. As overt discrimination and segregation has been chipped away, the majority has always found another group of people to provide opportunity to before Black Americans (who've been here longer than any other group besides WASPs).

Look at American History. First the Irish/Scottish immigrants were granted opportunity, then the Jews, then Asians, now Latinos and immigrant African-Americans. All these groups are perceived to be more timid and less radicalized than Black Americans. These numbers aren't as a result of the lack of capable students, it's because of fear and malleability.

But I'm glad these stats are getting out there b/c this is a problem (and I do think it's a problem) that we alumni have known for quite some time.